033: Vanessa Van Edwards on How to Captivate People

Vanessa Van Edwards Vanessa Van Edwards is lead investigator at the Science of People—a human behavior research lab. She is the national bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding With People, which was chosen as one of Apple’s Most Anticipated Books of the year. Her work has been featured on CNN, NPR and Fast Company. She has written columns on the science of success for Entrepreneur Magazine and the Huffington Post. Vanessa started her study of people as a shy teenager, trying to figure out how people interacted. This turned into a lifelong pursuit. When I read her book, I wanted her to come on the show. Vanessa was kind enough to take time away from her 10 week old daughter to share her story and wisdom. There’s a lot of great stuff in here, including

  • When to practice your new tactics (and when not to).
  • One of the few things Reuben did right in college, and how you can apply this technique right now to help you.
  • Why we subconsciously use defensive body language in work settings, and what we can do about it (another great VVE technique).
  • Starting a conversation vs “sparking” a conversation.
  • Why everyone should do 6 months in sales of some kind.
  • Vanessa’s sales tip– don’t focus on sales, focus on stories.
  • Don’t hand out your props at the beginning of the meeting.
  • How to let other people impress you, instead of trying to impress them.
  • What to say, where to stand, and what to do at networking events.
  • How to share stories effectively, and how to know if your stories are too long.
  • How to ask for advice
  • Bonus: A tip that Vanessa has never mentioned before when people ask if you know someone…

Books Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People Captivate The science of succeeding with people               Other books mentioned:

  • Howard’s End, by E.M. Forster. One of the great works of English literature (so I’m told) with a great motif: “Only connect!”

Other Tools & Resources:

  • Check out Vanessa’s site Science of People for all kind of goodies on improving your social interactions.

The wine

As mentioned, Vanessa had to take a rain check on the wine because she has a newborn that she’s feeding, but in her honor, I got to enjoy something from one of her favorite Oregon wineries, Argyle (it’s the 2013 Reserve Pinot Noir). It’s got a bit of fruit and bit of earth, but not whelming, and it’s got more body than a lot of Willamette pinots. Argyle Pinot Noir 2013    bottle_0002_oban-14yo

Where to find Vanessa:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more). listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on AndroidPlayer.fm.


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032 Michael Zipursky on the Elite Consulting Mind

Michael Zipursky

Michael Zipursky didn’t mean to start consulting with giant Japanese corporations in his early 20s. It just happened. Hear how he pulled it off, and how he started multiple businesses, including his most recent venture helping consultants learn from his mistakes (this should sound familiar to long time listeners). Plus, learn to improve your results by improving your mindset, from the author The Elite Consulting Mind. In this episode, learn how:

  • Michael set himself up for success in his early 20s before he got on a plane for  Japan. (He found a niche for helping Japanese companies market to the North American market.)
  • Why he’s fascinated with languages and cultures.
  • Michael learned how to sell, sometimes the hard way.
    • Why people try to rush sales before relationships, and what to do instead (and a time Michael made a bad mistake in this area).
    • How many consultants make the opposite mistake, and never try to actually sell anything. (“No one buys consulting, unless someone makes an offer.”)
    • No one wants to buy what we’ve created. They want to buy a solution to their problem.
    • The only way to solve the problem is to understand it by asking questions.
    • When you understand the problem, you can charge a lot more.
  • What’s holding people back? Usually fear. Fear of making a mistake, the unknown, and being rejected.
    • The Catch-22 is that confidence and competence come from taking action, while people don’t take action because they’re afraid.
    • Taking action gives you the only feedback that really matters– from the market.
  • When we do “take action”, a lot of the things that make you feel productive, because you’re spending time on them, are not actually moving your business forward. Drop those things, and spend more time on the smaller fraction of things that actually create lots of value. We often do things that are easy or comfortable, rather than the things that are hard and actually productive. For example, spend time to meet with people, or, at a minimum pick up the phone and have a two way conversation. Don’t fall into the trap of sending the quick email.
    • Think you don’t have time? Follow the 80/20 rule. Document your process and pinpoint where you are really required. Offload repeated tasks (and your ego).
    • What you can’t outsource— marketing! You have to define your audience and your message.
  • Bonus tip: If you really want to build a thriving practice, stay in touch and make introductions when you *don’t* have the solution they need right now. This is a great way to build trust.

Books

EliteConsultingMindCoverThe Elite Consulting Mind: 16 Proven Mindsets to Attract More Clients, Increase Your Income and Achieve Meaningful Success, by Michael Zipursky.

 

Other books mentioned:

Other Tools:

 

The wine

We were on a Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir kick for this discussion, without any coordination. Michael was drinking some Patz & Hall 2014 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir (which is amazing, if you like Pinot like I do). I had the also delicious but less amazing (but much more affordable) Sean Minor 2014 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir.

Patz and Hall

Sean Minor

 

 

bottle_0002_oban-14yo

Where to find Michael:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more).

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031: Rusty Shelton on Authority Marketing and Writing Books

Rusty Shelton

Rusty Shelton has written 2 books, and his latest one, Authority Marketing: How to Leverage the 7 Pillars of Thought Leadership to Make Competition Irrelevant, is about using books to help spread your message and grow your business.

I sat down with Rusty in his Hill Country office to talk about media, authority, marketing, and more. In this interview, learn…

  • How Rusty got into the publishing world, and how he got started on his first book.
  • The “why?” behind writing a book– it’s not about getting rich from selling a lot of copies. (“The worst way to make money from a book is buy selling it.”)
  • Why every company is a media company.
  • Why books are different than other forms of media, and why writing one is different for your brand than other forms of content.
  • 3 types of media channels
    • Rented media (Facebook, etc)
    • Earned media (PR, speaking, referrals, etc)
    • Owned media (this is the new channel that didn’t exist for most of human history, at least not a global scale)
  • 3 types of audiences– the stadium analogy
    • your customer and partners
    • people who have a seat in the stadium, but haven’t bought yet.
    • outside the stadium
  • The big marketing mistake companies make with the stadium
  • How to set up compelling Lead Magnets.
  • How to convert earned media to owned media.
  • Content strategy as your personal newspaper
    • Don’t fill it with ads or op-eds
    • Think like the media, not a marketer– focus on the needs of the audience
  • Why personal brands can be more powerful than big corporate brands
  • How to use visuals to promote your personal brand
  • How your personal brand is important, even for referral-based work
  • 3 ways to publish
    • Traditional publishing with a major publisher, an advance, etc. Takes about a year. Getting harder and harder to get this if you don’t already have a big stadium.
    • Independent– you get the editor, design the cover, etc. You can sell these in bookstores, but there’s more work involved, and you shouldn’t expect to be on a lot of shelves.
    • Assisted self publishing, or hybrid (like Greenleaf Books, Advantage | Forbes Books)
  • Doesn’t matter as much as it used to, but, the book has to be good, and it can’t look like it was “self-published”.
    • You need to have an audio book if you’re trying to reach business audiences. (Joel Block here in Austin help us do our reading, which took 9 hours for 35,000 words, and yielded an 8 hour audio book.)
  • Do an online brand audit– type your name into Google. Are you there? Do the results line up with what you want your prospects to see?
  • What’s holding me back from writing a book?
    • How to “eat the elephant”, and why you don’t need to write a 100,000 words.
  • Sales for Nerds the book– it’s coming. What have I done?!?!?! What would you like to see covered in the book? Let me know on Twitter

Books

Authority Marketing Book CoverAuthority Marketing: How to Leverage the 7 Pillars of Thought Leadership to Make Competition Irrelevant

And Rusty’s previous book:

Mastering the New Media Landscape: Embrace the Micromedia Mindset

The wine

Monte Real RiojaMonte Real Rioja 2009 from Spain. Delicious, a bit of BBQ and smoke. Feels right at home in the Texas summer.

 

 

bottle_0002_oban-14yo

Where to find Rusty:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more).

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029 Stella Orange on Authentic Marketing

Screen-Shot-2018-01-30-at-2.30.56-PM-768x857

Stella Orange talks about her strange path to marketing and copywriting via Japan, school teaching, bike riding, and writing copy to raise money for an arts nonprofit in Montana.

This includes the books she read to teach herself direct marketing, how she got her first clients (a great strategy for people who don’t have a sales engine when they start), and the mistakes business owners make in marketing.

[Extra props to Stella for taking time out of her vacation to record this episode, which I had to reschedule not once, but twice. This did leave her without whiskey, which was quite unfortunate. And then her dog threw up during the call, which she cleaned up on the fly. Thanks for being a trooper.]

Check out this episode to learn:

  • How working for a nonprofit and writing and performing plays gave Stella a great perspective on the performance of marketing. (Everyone has an interesting story about how they got into sales and marketing, and this might be one of the most interesting stories I’ve heard.)
  • How she turned her passion for writing into a “career”, despite being “unemployable”.
  • How she got her first clients, and how she taught herself sales. (And what her coach said to her when she said, “I’m a writer, I want my work to speak for itself.”)
  • Why she cried when she was starting her business, and why she cried after it took off.
  • Her stress over charging $450 for a 5 page website (she now charges much more, and has a great way of dealing with price objections).
  • “Old marketing”, focusing on pain, versus “new marketing”, focusing on desires, which can attract more qualified leads for many businesses. (Stella spent way too much time on unqualified leads early in her career.)
  • The biggest mistake people make in marketing (and of course, what you should do instead).

Books (if you don’t want to spend the money on the Amazon link, you can go to the public library like Stella did):

The wine whiskyOban 14 Year Old

Reuben had some Oban 14 year old Highland whisky. It’s got a little bit of sweetness to it, with hints of vanilla and caramel. Nice for people who don’t want all the peat, but also want a bit more flavor than the Macallan.

bottle_0002_oban-14yo

Stella wished, for just this one moment that she wasn’t on vacation, and was at home with her bottles, preferably the Yoichi Japanese whisky.Yoichi Single Malt

bottle_0002_oban-14yo

Where to find Stella:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com. (Looking for a way to turn more visitors into leads, leads into conversations, conversations into clients, and stay in touch with the people who matter? Start a Mimiran free trial.)

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028 Maurice Cherry on Content Marketing

Maurice Cherry

Maurice had always enjoyed using computers, even as far back as elementary school. He intended to get a computer science degree, but found that his degree program wasn’t very practical. He switched gears a little and became a math major. Maurice was named as one of GDUSA’s “People to Watch” in 2018, and was named one of Atlanta’s “Power 30 Under 30″ in the field of Science and Technology by the Apex Society. Maurice was also selected as one of HP’s “50 Tech Tastemakers” in conjunction with Black Web 2.0, and was also selected by Atlanta Tribune as one of 2014’s Young Professionals. He recently won the Steven Heller Prize for Cultural Commentary from AIGA. He’s the host of the RevisionPath podcast, highlighting black designers and developers.

How did he accidentally end up in sales? He needed a job and telemarketers were hiring. It was humbling and soul crushing. He ended up getting fired.

Got a job working in design, based on a portfolio he had built up over time. This felt like his first real job, where he had a door with an office.

He worked at WebMD and AT&T, which sounds like it was a strange “Office Space” kind of dystopia, like a weird Black Mirror episode.

When he quite and started on his own, he had a rough time because selling was hard. He started working on a political campaign, in the aftermath of Obama’s successful use of the internet, which at the time seemed very cutting edge for the political world. (This was back in the day when MySpace was bigger than Facebook.) This led to business opportunities with other people in the city. He also joined forces with 2 other people, using this extended network to help land clients.

He ended up running his own agency for 9 years, then joined Fog Creek Software, after feeling like so much of the design world got commoditized. There, he specializes in creating content, and he’s got some important tips:

  • Build trust with your audience. People are so inundated that they often don’t even believe the truth, let alone marketing B.S.
  • Test. Test. Test. Take away the subjectivity. Even if you don’t have a huge audience.
  • Personalize.
  • How to “cheat” at content marketing– Maurice uses Google Keep to track notes. He’s had over 200 guests on his Revision Path podcast. When he sees a news item on one of his past guests, he logs it in Keep, so he can quickly put together a newsletter without having to dig for information. (Maurice uses RSS to keep on top of the news.)
  • Maurice uses Buffer to schedule social media posts in a queue. He likes to prepare content weeks to months in advance, and schedule it to go later. (Mental note– I need to get better at this.)
  • How do you know if content will be good? You may not. But ask people in surveys where they can criticize you anonymously. And stay in touch with your audience. Have a conversation. If you’re not hearing anything back from your audience, you’re not really having a conversation. Understand your audience– not only the topics that they care about, but the depth and length and language that they care about.

“Talk to your audience, get to know them.”

—-

Social Media Scheduling Apps:
Buffer
MeetEdgar (and check out the Sales for Nerds episode with MeetEdgar founder Laura Roeder.)
SocialBee

Google Keep

Black Mirror (Netflix TV series– prepare to be disturbed, especially one of the episodes that seems a little too much like one of the jobs Maurice mentioned in the interview)

Fog Creek Software (and check out the Sales for Nerds episode with Fog Creek CEO Anil Dash— really interesting technical insights into the sales process)

 

The wine


Venue Vineyards 2015 stage coach syrahVenge Vineyards 2015 Stagecoach Syrah
–currently sold out at the vineyard– I was lucky enough to grab some at a local event– it’s a bit fancier than the wine I usually drink. 😉 Yummy, but very rich– you may want to have it with some food. (Goes nicely with BBQ, according to my research.)

Where to find Maurice:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

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027 Justin Foster goes from ranching to sales to spiritual branding– come on the journey

justin-foster-300x300

No one on this podcast grows up aspiring to be in sales. I always enjoy hearing about the journey, and Justin Foster has had an amazing journey.

He grew up on a ranch– something we are more likely to experience through the mythology of the screen than in real life. While he loved ranch life, his home life was challenging.

He moved to Austin in 2014, and describes it as the first place that felt like home.

Justin started his marketing firm in 2003 with the notion that sales and marketing should get along. (Crazy talk, right?)

Justin got his first job in sales 10 years earlier, in 1993, because he and his wife had just had their first son, and he needed to make more money. He bugged an office supply company to give him a job on 100% commission, with no sales support, working a territory that no one else wanted. His sales training consisted of a product catalog. He became the top selling first-year sales rep in the company’s century-long history.

How did he do that? For one thing, ranching is hard work. He was used to doing that. So sales seemed much easier than ranching. Plus, he enjoyed talking to people, he always honest with people, and he had some charm.

He focused on small town governments and manufacturers, and a list of “maverick” accounts that other reps had tried to sell but without success.

Here’s the question he asked his buyer:

  • What do I need to do to make you look good? (For some people, it was about buying local, or maybe about saving money, or just avoiding running out of office supplies.)

Then he’s say, “what you need to do to make me happy is order just one thing, and I’ll hand deliver it.”

Why is it so important for sales and marketing to get along? Shouldn’t this be obvious? Yes, but the rise of social media has changed the playing field.

Here are Justin’s 3 Rules for marketing:

  1. Tell the truth.
  2. Find out what their needs are.
  3. Be a human being. (This is hopefully starting to sound familiar to long time listeners.)

Branding is no longer the candy wrapper around the product.

“A brand is how other people experience what you believe”, whether you have a solo firm or Coca-Cola. Great brands are therefore spiritual experiences– Justin cites Patagonia, Yeti, and Southwest as examples of these great brands that create a connection beyond even the emotional level.

You connect with your mission. (A mission statement is evidence you don’t have a mission.)

A mission has  few characteristics:

  1. It has to improve humanity.
  2. You can invite others to join your mission.
  3. It’s a bit terrifying. It can seem like heresy– because it goes beyond your role, for example, of making your quarterly numbers.

What do brands need these days:

  1. An authentic voice.
  2. Consistently memorable experience.
  3. Compelling story.

Unfortunately, brands usually miss some things along the way:

  1. Lacking the will to want to be a brand.
  2. Lacking the courage to be different– you can’t just be slightly better. (“Don’t be a karaoke singer– make your own music.”)
  3. You have to do the work and make it a daily habit (uh-oh, I’m in trouble).

The best thing you can do for your sales team is:

  1. Give them a product that doesn’t suck.
  2. Provide good branding.

But #2 can’t make up for #1.

How can people get started:

  • Go to your website, and remove the “plastic flowers” — the jargon and other crap on your site.
  • Look at “time on site” in Google Analytics– this shows how much interest people–  you already have a transaction with them– they are giving you their time.
  • Tell the stories of the people you are helping.

Most companies aren’t doing these things. Do them and see if your time-on-site goes up.

How do people find their spiritual mission and their roots?

  • Write down what you’ve always known to be true.
  • What would you be willing to commit civil disobedience over?

Justin notes that all industries are in chaos, and the only thing that cuts through the chaos is the truth. It can be hard for family businesses to brand because the older generation often ends up selling to their friends and can’t adjust.

You have to work on your personal brand, even if you’re not the founder of the company. It’s the one thing you can control. If you don’t like yourself, why would you expect others to like you? Self-worth is critical– confidence can be faked.

Books mentioned in the show:

The Go-Giver by Bob Burg.

Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown (“the power of choice can neither be giving away or taken away, but it can be forgotten”)

 

 

The wine whiskey…

Ben Milam Bourbon

Justin’s enjoying some Ben Milam Texas Bourbon from down the road in Blanco.

Justin’s also using a giant ice cube for less melting and dilution.

Ardbeg 10YO blancReuben has some Ardbeg 10 year old Islay Whisky. (Note the lack of ‘e’.) If you like it peaty, this is a great whisky for you.

Where to find Justin:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

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026 The totally awesome networking strategy Chris Wike uses that you should use too

Chris Wike

Chris Wike is an attorney at Hajjar Peters here in Austin– not exactly someone you’d think to turn to for Sales for Nerds.

Lawyers can’t sell and market like everyone else. There are regulations and ethics rules and approval rules that limit what you can do. For example, if there’s a lawsuit against a business, lawyers can’t reach out and offer to help them with a specific case (unless it’s an existing client). If you want to run an ad on TV or send out a mailer, or even publish ads online, you need to get approval.

You can argue whether this is a good consumer protection or incumbent-driven efforts to make it harder for young lawyers (maybe some of both?), but that’s the reality, especially in Texas.

So, in this episode, Chris walks us through selling as a lawyer…

  • How Chris starts relationship building with folks you might not expect and how it  gives him control of his career.
  • Chris’s rule for networking.
  • How he manages referrals.
  • How Chris gets meetings with high level people.
  • How Chris hosts networking events– this is a crazy good idea that you should start doing right now.
  • Why Chris doesn’t like retainers.
  • Chris’s strategy for networking outside of his own events.
  • How Chris tries to set himself apart as a service provider (great advice for any service provider).
  • Why it’s great that clients may not care what you’re telling them.
  • How do you give great value to clients.
  • Chris’s 2 rules for working with people and what he wishes students would learn in school.
  • A crazy internet lawyer ad. (And here he is getting busted for contempt.)

Plus, I interject with my philosophy on people and tell you how to get an inside track to Sales for Nerds.

Chris and his partners have a 1500 bottle cellar in their conference room.

wine wall

But you don’t need that to take advantage of Chris’s killer networking strategy.

The wine…

resign grenache2015 Godspeed Granache from Resign Wine. Yummy blend of 80% Grenache, 20% Mourvèdre– the grapes are California, but the company is actually based here in Texas.

(As the producer notes, this label is supposed to yell, “f it! I’m out!”)

 

Where to find Chris:

p.s. I couldn’t make the last event Chris threw, so I’m now “banned for life.” 😉

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

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International Women’s Day– Some Sales Inspiration

Some awesome women have come on Sales for Nerds– here’s a quick recap:

There’s tons of great advice here, whether you’re a man or woman.

And even if you’re not in sales or marketing, if you ever want to convince someone to do something, especially something new, different, and perhaps scary, you are actually in the same field as those in sales and marketing.

025 Christina Bell on Sales as a Sorting Exercise

Christina Bell

Like most of my guests, Christina Bell never intended to get into sales. She comes from a family of teachers, but needed to take a job, any job, after graduating.

She did a great job (which she credits in part to the training program) and started to train other sales reps.

Finally, she was a teacher and was welcomed back to family Thanksgiving. 😉

In this episode, Christina shares her philosophies on sales, including:

  • Why sales is a sorting exercise, and why this is the key to everything else.
  • The mistakes people make trying to push people too fast (and keeping them around in the pipeline too long). This is gold.
  • How to make conversation and ask questions productively.
  • How to make conversation flow, and how many people shut it down.
  • How do you know if you’re dealing with a real opportunity? Or just someone looking for some free consulting?
  • Why people talk about what they do the wrong way (and how to do it better).
  • Another good reason you don’t want to cut your prices.
  • Your responsibility in managing your pipeline.
  • Much, much more…

 

 

The wine…

Starmont Pinot Noir
Another yummy, fruity Napa(!) Pinot Noir. What can I say? This time it’s a delicious 2013 from Starmont.

 

Where to find Christina:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

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024: Bryan Payne gets thrown out of school, starts companies, and completes Iron Man triathlons

Bryan PayneBryan Payne is a serial entrepreneur, salesmen, Iron Man (12 times over), and general man of adventure and humor.

Normally a beer drinker, he was a good sport about having some wine on the podcast (and didn’t seem to mind too much).

This episode is a bit longer than usual, because there were just so many interesting episodes that I wanted to hear about, and I think you will, too.

For example, learn how Bryan and his brother got clever when starting their sales career chocolates to raise money for their elementary school.

Then hear about how he started a lawn care business in high school that he grew to 13 employees, and which he sold to one of the actual adults working for him.

Learn how he was the only student in his class not to go to college (and how he got expelled) and what he did to get his first job instead. It’s not conventional, but probably applies even more these days.

Then Bryan gets into how he accidentally landed his first official sales roll, and what did to be successful.

Plus,

  • Why he quit to start his own company.
  • The big bet he made on technology (and how the same technology almost killed the business).
  • How he acquired a business for almost nothing and turned it around from bankruptcy (hint, it involves pricing)
  • How be built up a capable, motivated sales team with almost no capital

In addition, learn:

  • “48 Hour Rule” for moving quickly
  • 1st Principle of Sales
  • What song you should listen to if you want to appreciate 70s music (I don’t agree with this one)
  • Why Bryan loves millennials (seriously)
  • The completely unlikely way that Bryan got into doing Iron Man triathlons.
  • How he got hundreds of resumes with a simple, no-bs story (here’s the actual story)

 

 

The wine…

Stephen Vincent Sonoma County Pinot NoirAnother yummy, fruity Sonoma Pinot Noir. What can I say? I like them.

 

Where to find Bryan:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

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