This is a bit of a different episode, but bear with me. Oscar Trimboli is not a “sales” expert, or a “marketing” expert, or any of the usual experts you’ll find on this podcast. He’s a “deep listening” expert. What does that even mean? And what does it mean for you?
First, consider the time and effort you’ve put into communication. Speaking, writing, presenting. Maybe not as much time and effort as we’d like, but consider how much time and energy have you invested in learning to listen?
Listening is more important that talking, but most of us have no formal training in how to listen. The good news is that you can listen to this episode (no pun intended) and get some great training that will help you be more effective at work and at life.
In this episode, learn:
How Oscar learned to be good at cards despite being bad at math.
How he decided to focus his career on deep listening.
Why deep listening is essential for good sales and marketing
How to shorten the sales cycle
The 4 listening villains (The Dramatizer, The Interrupter, The Lost Listener, and The Shrewd Listener)
The simple reason we have to listen deeply– the rates of speaking (125 words per minute), listening (400 words per minute) and thinking (up to 900 words per minute) are different– so there’s always something unsaid going through the speaker’s mind. You might only be getting 11% of the picture.
Listen for code words that show that speaker is getting to thoughts originally unspoken, like “I’ve just realized…” or “what I forgot to mention is…”
Deep listening is actually about helping the speaker get their real thoughts out.
Aaron Ross returns to Sales for Nerds after coming on in Episode 20. If you haven’t heard that, you might want to listen to that first (although you don’t have to). Aaron’s got 9 kids (and working on more– many of these are adopted, just FYI), so he’s a busy guy.
He started a company that failed because he didn’t know sales well enough, so he joined Salesforce to learn about sales.
How do you know if you have a good niche? If you can describe what you do, whether an elevator pitch or on twitter, do people understand what you do, and do the right people ask for more.
A lot of updates to the second edition involve the deluge of information. Aaron notes that buyers don’t necessarily know more than ever, they’re often more confused than ever.
If you’re in services, it’s easy to say that almost anyone could be in your market, so focus on the use cases where you add the most value.
The Current Information Environment
How do you deal with massive surge of content– you can’t just write a great blog post and get on the front page of Google. You have to create a signature piece of cornerstone content. What’s the one thing you want your company to be known for?
How Do You Grow the Value of Your Company
Another interesting case study from the book is how Bregal Sagemount — a private equity firm– triples the value of a company in 3 years. They mostly focus on growing sales faster– because that grows the value of the company most effectively. They invest in getting more leads, run better meetings, leading to more deals. (Sounds familiar, right?)
Unifying Sales and Marketing, while Specializing Roles
They try to get specialized roles for sales, especially better outbound prospecting, but they also get sales and marketing together as a “revenue team”. One of the best practices is to put marketing on a quota for sales-qualified leads or revenue, if the sales cycle is short enough (a quarter or less). So if you want to increase the value of your company, increasing sales growth and predictability is likely the way to go.
How do you define a qualified lead? This will vary from company to company and even by channel (an inbound lead is usually more qualified than an outbound lead, for example). A starting point for a qualified lead might be:
Do they have authority
Do they have a need
Do they want a next step
Note that in industry, a person with enough authority can make budget and timing happen.
Inbound and Outbound (Nets and Spears)
Inbound is great, outbound is great. And they go great together. Outbound lets you access parts of the market that don’t know you exist, and you can define your targets. If you’re going to do outbound, make sure one person owns the initiative. At least one person should be doing this full time for a few months. One example is Zuora, which had reps doing 30 calls and 60 emails per day. The better you know your customer, the better you’ve nailed your niche, the easier this outbound prospecting gets.
If you don’t know who to call, but you know which companies, you can call the company and ask nicely.
When someone asks what you do, pretend they asked you “how do you help your customers?” Use the first 3 seconds of the conversations to earn the next 60 seconds.
By all means, check out the book… (see links below)
Liston got his start in environmental engineering, and picked up a lot of sales and marketing expertise along the way. He started freelancing as a digital marketer (“I knew enough to be dangerous”) and started an agency.
However, as marketing scales, it becomes less about individual people and more about numbers. He missed the one-on-one interaction, so he started his current venture, to help consultants scale their practices, making him a great fit for Sales for Nerds, since that’s really the whole mission of the podcast.
In this episode, learn:
About Liston’s life work: understanding how people make decisions and why.
The three types of consulting founders (and why all of them rely on sales to make money).
Which is why you need to invest in sales and marketing the same way you invest in your craft.
How you can be more proactive in generating referrals and word-of-mouth type sales, instead of waiting passively for that business to come to you.
How to use inbound and outbound strategies together, and why they are both important.
How to deal with your fear of entering the media world.
The one critical thing you need more of to get more clients.
Liston’s simple, attainable, really strong outbound sales strategy that you can start doing right now.
How to handle inbound inquiries better.
Much, much more…
The Wine Whisky
Liston brings some Kentucky bourbon– Ri(1) (pronounced Rye-one).
I was all out of Lagavulin, perhaps my favorite Scotch, but I did have some Lagavulin Distiller’s Edition laying around, which brings a bit more sherry flavor to the peaty intensity of Lagavulin. I think this is probably the most expensive bottle I’ve featured on the podcast, although on a per-serving basis, whisky is a pretty good value. 😉
Rick is the VP of Sales and Marketing for National Association of Sales Professionals, so he’s like an uber meta-sales person, but that’s not how he started. He got a summer internship knocking on doors for a painting company. Learn about his journey, and hear Rick’s insights on sales psychology, including:
Why you’re a sales professional if you’re a business owner.
What he learned his first day doing door-to-door sales as an introvert, and how you can use it when dealing with your own inner psychology.
How Rick became the #1 sales rep for a Cisco integrator, outselling many people who had been there long before him.
How much time to give yourself to do research before a call.
How information gets conveyed (55% body language, 38% tone, 7% words). This is why talking on the phone loses so much information.
(Check out the show Lie to Me for more on how body language reveals a lot about us.)
The importance of finding mentors, and why it’s not as hard as you think.
Pre-framing (don’t just punt it to the prospect), re-framing (getting back on track), and de-framing (backing out gracefully if there isn’t a fit) are 3 great skills to learn.
Learn to ask questions gently, but persistently.
Sales is not about directing, it’s about aligning and redirecting. (Don’t attack someone, they will put up a wall.)
The one thing Rick would like people to fix: don’t focus on yourself.
Rick brings some innovation to Sales for Nerds by having champagne.
I make a move to Burgundy with Chateau de Santenay Bourgogne Pinot Noir, which is definitely more earthy than the California Pinot I often drink, but still accessible and it doesn’t have the deep earth flavors some people don’t enjoy.
Craig started as a computer science major and ended up one of the top sales people in Canada, with a best-selling sales book to his name.
How did this happen? And what can you learn from this for your business (and your life)?
In this episode, learn:
What’s considered a mild winter in Calgary.
How he jump started his sales career, even though he didn’t seem qualified on paper. (And how he reflected on this later and the realization it led to.)
Craig’s primary sales philosophy: How do I become the first person people call when they have a problem?
Where to look for great sales reps.
Why he had a lot of price objections when he started, and what he did about it.
What he did after he joined WorldCom just as 9/11 was happening, and then, after he became their top sales rep, what happened when everyone realized the execs had committed accounting fraud. It was the first time no one would buy from him.
Craig’s 3 big epiphanies about sales:
The Window of Disatisfaction
Trigger Events (and typical examples)
Analyzing wins (and why it’s more important than the typical sales advice of “even if you lose the deal, don’t lose the lesson”)
Why you need to use verbs instead of nouns (with some great examples from trucking companies to marriages), and what you want to hear as a response.
Why you want to ask “how?” and “what?” rather than “why?” questions (speaking of advice that can also apply to marriages).
Why Craig ended up living on Yerba Buena Island in the middle of San Francisco Bay (I always wondered who actually lived there whenever I drove over the Bay Bridge).
And much, much more. Even though I had read Craig’s book, I learned a ton, and I think you will, too.
Joy Beatty insists she is not a VP of Sales. Or Marketing. Even though she runs both teams for Seilevel, a requirements consulting firm that helps companies complete big software project successfully by actually having the right requirements in place. (For people who have never been involved in these big projects, this probably sounds crazy. For people who have, you know how important it is.)
How does she reconcile this: “I don’t see myself in sales. I see myself as a problem-solver.” One thing she can do is put a process in place. So that’s what she did, to great success. Learn how she did that, and how you can do the same thing, without being a world class sales expert, including
How she never wanted to run sales, and thought it was a terrible idea.
How she applied Sandler concepts (including some learned from Adam Boyd from Episode 3), not only to sales, but also to consulting, including the use of upfront contracts and making it safe to say “no.” (“I don’t feel like I’m doing sales, and I guess that’s why it’s working.”)
Why they don’t use quotas.
How to get opportunities unstuck.
How they defined the sales process (and how you can do it quickly if you’re not sure where to start).
How to get people to change and use the new process.
How Joy applies requirements consulting techniques to simplify sales reporting.
How to keep yourself accountable if you’re doing sales in addition to your “day job.”
Joy shares a tip she learned from me (!) about picking up the phone.
Here’s an example of working on the sales process:
Joy brought some Aimé Roquesante rosé. I am trying to broaden my horizons, but I have to admit I’m having some trouble here. If you’re a rosé fan, don’t let me deter you.
Terry is the President of Hansen Group Company, a sales performance improvement firm, and the creator of Hansen University, an online training platform with over 60 hours of online courses for sales professionals and sales managers. For over a decade, Terry has helped enterprises, nonprofits and startups find more prospects, close more deals, and retain customers longer. Terry and his wife have 5 kids, so that might be an even more impressive insight into his organizational skills. 😉
Like most people on this podcast, Terry never thought he’d end up in sales, let alone a sales trainer. A gymnast in high school, Terry ended up working as a stunt performer at Disneyland.
He almost ran off to join the circus. Literally. But with a young family, he needed more reliable work, so he tried sales. And was terrible at it. It took him years to figure it out (although less time than me).
He realized that most of his peers in the sales group had a really polished pitch, so he created his own. Only to realize that the really successful sales reps were much more about listening than talking. Today’s buyers already have a lot of information– they don’t need a feature dump.
Terry also realized that it’s really hard to overcome objections (despite the extensive sales literature on this topic). It’s much better to prevent those objections earlier in the sales process.
Terry realized that while their are lots of possible objections, they basically boil down to 4 main issues:
Motivation. How much pain or urgency is there?
Budget and money.
Authority to get the deal done.
The product/service/solution itself.
The PIMAT Framework. Use Terry’s framework to remember what you need to have a qualified deal:
Reuben enjoyed a Los Frailes Sinergia Cabernet Sauvignon from 2014. It’s an organic wine, that started with a strong “this is an organic wine” taste (can someone tell me what that is?), but having a glass the day after I opened it, that taste was mostly gone, and what was left was a very smooth cab (I would have thought it was a different grape, if you’d asked me).
I had a lot of fun talking about proposals with Collin Stewart, co-CEO of Predictable Revenue (along with Aaron Ross, author of Predictable Revenue, who did an interview on Sales for Nerds earlier to talk about that and his new book From Impossible to Inevitable). Collin was a good sport about me beating up on his proposal (he had sent me an example before the interview, and I had taken out my proverbial red pen). I hope I was as good a sport about my poor outbound sales skills. 😉
Vanessa Van Edwards is lead investigator at the Science of People—a human behavior research lab. She is the national bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding With People, which was chosen as one of Apple’s Most Anticipated Books of the year. Her work has been featured on CNN, NPR and Fast Company. She has written columns on the science of success for Entrepreneur Magazine and the Huffington Post. Vanessa started her study of people as a shy teenager, trying to figure out how people interacted. This turned into a lifelong pursuit. When I read her book, I wanted her to come on the show. Vanessa was kind enough to take time away from her 10 week old daughter to share her story and wisdom. There’s a lot of great stuff in here, including
When to practice your new tactics (and when not to).
One of the few things Reuben did right in college, and how you can apply this technique right now to help you.
Why we subconsciously use defensive body language in work settings, and what we can do about it (another great VVE technique).
Starting a conversation vs “sparking” a conversation.
Why everyone should do 6 months in sales of some kind.
Vanessa’s sales tip– don’t focus on sales, focus on stories.
Don’t hand out your props at the beginning of the meeting.
How to let other people impress you, instead of trying to impress them.
What to say, where to stand, and what to do at networking events.
How to share stories effectively, and how to know if your stories are too long.
How to ask for advice
Bonus: A tip that Vanessa has never mentioned before when people ask if you know someone…
Howard’s End, by E.M. Forster. One of the great works of English literature (so I’m told) with a great motif: “Only connect!”
Other Tools & Resources:
Check out Vanessa’s site Science of People for all kind of goodies on improving your social interactions.
As mentioned, Vanessa had to take a rain check on the wine because she has a newborn that she’s feeding, but in her honor, I got to enjoy something from one of her favorite Oregon wineries, Argyle (it’s the 2013 Reserve Pinot Noir). It’s got a bit of fruit and bit of earth, but not whelming, and it’s got more body than a lot of Willamette pinots.