referrals – Page 2 – Sales for Nerds

083 Wayne Mullins on Full Circle Marketing

Wayne is the founder of Ugly Mug Marketing and author of Full Circle Marketing: Transform Your Marketing & Turn Customers Into Evangelists.

Wayne’s parents got him some Zig Ziglar CDs (he still needs to ask his parents why they got him this gift) and wanted to get into sales, but wasn’t very good at it. But he realized that sales provided instant feedback, if you could separate the emotional response. He got better at sales by focusing on the prospect’s perspective, rather than his own.

As he got better at sales, he decided to start his own firm, in the only other skill he had: lawn care.

His lawn care clients started to ask him for marketing help because they were impressed with his growth. When he sold the lawn care business, this turned into Ugly Mug Marketing.

The Ugly Mug name comes from David Oglivy, who said, “I would rather you show me an ad that’s ugly and effective over one that’s beautiful but isn’t.” Wayne wanted the ultimate goal to be client results, not beautiful ads or creativity awards.

His first clients were clients of his landscaping company, who wanted to know how we was growing so fast.

Here are some of his tips:

He started by creating a Top 100 prospect list by driving around town.
Then he brought dozens of boxes of donuts to those businesses about once per month. When the manager would complain about the lawn, the staff would refer Wayne’s company. (He had a big sticker with his business info on the top of the boxes.)
He picked up the phone and called. Don’t hide behind your inbox. The best way to connect with humans is face-to-face, then video, then phone.
Don’t think of marketing and advertising as the same thing. Advertising is a part of marketing. So is the way your lawn looks, the way you answer the phone, etc.
What are you doing to create raving fans for your business? Buying donuts and birthday gifts created evangelists. Taking care of your customers and ignoring the fads is much more cost-effective than trying to get new customers.
Your customers carry a contact database and social media access in their pockets. What are you doing to encourage them to use that on your behalf?
Create great experiences for your customers. (Wayne does this for clients based on not only their direct spending with his firm, but their referrals and referral potential.) The idea is to make people feel special.
Educate your customers to help them succeed in adjacent spaces. (One client would send a single email follow-up to leads that included phone numbers.)
Focus on the problem, not just the demographics of “who”? If we focus too much on “who” instead of the problem, we sometimes target the wrong people. What problem does your offering solve?
Magic Journal Exercise… you should know your ideal customer so well that you can write the journal entries for them.
Full Circle Marketing: move strangers to friends to clients to evangelists.
Opportunities in print and direct mail, if you can personalize it.
Eugene Schwartz: “enter the conversation that is already taking place in the mind of the prospect.” Look for places to tie your messaging to what they are already doing. (Breakthrough Advertising: https://breakthroughadvertisingbook.com/)
How do we turn customers into evangelists? What does a reasonable person have the right to expect. Expectation Litmus Test. On the left, right down all the steps someone goes through doing business with you. What should a reasonable person expect during each step. What does it look like if we don’t meet expectations? Now you can test if you’re actually meeting expectations.
Bain surveyed 4,000 small businesses and 92% of the owners said they provided the highest level of services. Then Bain surveyed the customers. Only 8% of the customers agreed with that assessment.
You have to hit those expectations, at a minimum, to turn customers into evangelists.
Call those evangelists and ask them if they know other people who are dealing with the same problem you helped them fix.

The Wine

Reuben enjoys Para Maria Syrah/Petit Verdot blend from Santa Barbara county.

Wayne is sipping on his trusty water bottle.

Where to find Wayne

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (It also tracks referrals and how much business you get from them and makes it easy to follow up and have conversations, just like Wayne suggests.)

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082 Jay Kingley on Referrability

Jay Kingley on Sales for Nerds to talk about referrals

Jay was a chemical engineer who went into management consulting, because he loved solving problems. His family was in business, so he grew up with this.

He joined a firm that had spun out of Bain in London and loved the work. But as he moved up and became a partner, he had to sell, which he didn’t find interesting at all.

He looked at what the other partners did– they entertained clients. Jay didn’t want to do that.

He wanted to solve problems. So he’d read about what was going on in his clients’ industries, then he’d call the CEO and talk about what was happening.

Jay decided to start helping smaller companies. He tried the networking groups and all that. It worked but was not a good use of time.

In this episode, learned what Jay learned, including:

How the 98% Typical elevator pitch (I solve these problems, for these types of clients, by providing this type of service) differs from the 2% elevator pitch, which makes the client the hero. This goes back to the great Christmas movie of all time (Die Hard– this is why Jay and I get along)– you have to be able to identify with, and root for, the hero.
Don’t confuse marketing (1 to many) with sales (1 to 1).
How to get someone to really listen to your advice.

Plus the 3 stages of marketing:

0: Spray and pray (“random acts of marketing”)
1: Targeted outbound prospecting. Can work quickly– in about 90 days, but not efficient.
2: Referrals. (Introductions are often a waste of time. Referrals are a bit better, but if you are one of 3 referrals, you’re going to waste a lot of time.
3: Provocative Perspective. Offer a contrarian perspective that people can tell to their network. Then the people who find the story resonates want to talk to you. Simon Sinek is a great example of this strategy.

Why should people help share your Provocative Perspective? Because these people know they need to nurture their relationships and provide a lot of value, but they need something to say.

The Wine

Reuben enjoys Sorpasso Italian red.

Jay has a (giant glass of) California Merlot.

Where to find Jay

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

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081 Michael Roderick on getting people to talk about you when you’re not in the room

Michael went from a high school english teacher to Broadway producer in 2 years, powered by a network that he not only created and nurtured, but empowered to help him.

He read Seth Godin’s book Linchpin, and realized he was part of a system for churning out factory workers. He realized he needed to pursue his Broadway dream, and “it not now, when?”

Later, he deconstructed how he’d been able to pull off this transition, and he realized it wasn’t just that he met with a lot of people– he empowered these people to talk about him (in a good way) when he wasn’t around.

He codified his learning in a set of easy to remember (and mention) frameworks. For example…

Why do people refer you? To make themselves look good. Use the S.U.R.E. framework to assist:

Shortcut– make it easy to process and use
Utility– make it useful for the person hearing it
Reputation– make the referrer look good
Expedient– make it easy to mention

Don’t think of your offering, think of the problem your ideal prospect wants to solve, and help them solve a small piece of it, like a magician showing how he does one of his tricks.

This could be an assessment or other useful, actionable piece of information. For example, Michael often talks to experts who have valuable intellectual property that they deploy on behalf of their clients, but they don’t package it the way Simon Sinek or Brené Brown did. So he says that if you know an expert who’s far more obscure than they should be, fill out the “Jargon Grid” to get ideas for packaging your ideas.

I call this a “verbal Lead Magnet that your network can deploy on your behalf”, which Michael says is right on.

To get people talking about you, follow Michael’s 3 Principles of Referability (A.I.M.):

Accessibility— can people understand it outside the “Echo Chamber of the Enlightened”— anchor in something someone already knows
Influence— will people share it without you asking— make them look good
Memory— make it easy to retell the story— focus on L.E.S.S.

Expanding the L.E.S.S. framework:

Langage— have your own way of saying things that carve out mental space for you (“venti coffee”)
Emotion—illicit emotion to access memory
Simplicity— don’t share a 27 point checklist. Keep it simple.
Structure— provide order to process information– short lists, quadrants, etc.

What are you going to do to get more people talking about you (in a good way) when you’re not in the room?

The Wine

Reuben enjoys Chateau Jander from Moulis-en-Medoc, Bordeaux.

Michael has a Sales for Nerds first: Whiteclaw Ruby Grapefruit.

Books

Linchpin: Are you indispensable? by Seth Godin

Where to find Michael

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”.

It tracks referrals and helps you grow and nurture your network. Plus, the “Mission and Positioning” screen will help you refine your message, and give you lots of ideas for catchy phrases that will make you more referable. Meanwhile, use Lead Magnets to help turn those referrals into leads and conversations. Get a list of 25 Consulting Lead Magnet ideas here.

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075 Julie Brown on networking the right way

“Networking” evokes thoughts of small talk and getting stabbed in the eye with business cards, at least for some of us. But it’s essential to so many relationship-based businesses. How can we grow and nurture an awesome, helpful, fun network without feeling icky?

In this episode, Julie Brown, author of This Shit Works: A No-Nonsense Guide to Networking Your Way to More Friends, More Adventures, and More Success (and host of the This Shit Works podcast), teaches you how to grow a great network while having fun and staying true to yourself, including:

You can build a big network– over time, not over night.
How Julie treats friends and colleagues
The “shortcut” to meeting lots of the right people.
How Julie’s network helped her husband launch his architecture firm, amidst the 2008 crash, how it helped Julie launch her business, and how you can apply it your business.
Why traditional icebreaker questions are terrible, and what to ask instead.
How to handle follow up.
Whether we should be happy and/or sad about the Celtics season (OK, that’s a bit of a tangent).

The Wine

Julie enjoys some “cougar juice” (how have I not heard this term before?), in other words, some buttery chardonnay, while I have some Nine Hats Pinot Gris from Washington (it’s over 100 in Texas, and I’m drinking white).

Where to find Julie

LinkedIn (make sure you listen to the episode before connecting).
YouTube Channel
JulieBrownBd.com
Amazon

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. It tracks referrals and helps you grow and nurture your network.

(Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Shaily’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, coming up with your Superhero Name so you’re unforgettable and more referrable, and much more.

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067 Shaily Hakimian on being unforgettable

Do people know how awesome you are? Can they tell from your website? From your social media presence? Social Media Sherpa Shaily Hakimian is here to make sure you let them know.

Shaily was a bullied kid– people thought she was stupid. She learned to make friends and be social on MySpace, where she first managed an online community. After getting her education degree, that experience led to a job offer, and then she had someone ask to pay her for help with online marketing. This led her to start her own marketing company Social Media Sherpa.

In this episode learn:

How Shaily learned to make friends and build communities online (on MySpace!).
How to talk to people in your community
How to not be boring online, which makes it harder to make sales, even after a referral. Make sure you tell your story. (Shaily introduces me to the apparently famous TikTok video “no one asks you questions if you’re an accountant” as a great example.)
To make it obvious what problem you solve– let your website, social media, and your podcast do this so you don’t have to rely on a conversation.
How should you think about strategy vs. execution when hiring help.
What do you need to succeed online? Where are your people? Get stuff from your brain onto “paper”.
How can you be unforgettable? What are your FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), the questions you get all the time? Are they on your website?
The key pieces of content to share, and how often to share. (Be consistent and regular, but ideally at least 2x per month.)
How to do website and social media well, so you don’t replace real human conversations, you have more real conversations with the right people, at a deeper level.
Make it authentic– put a little “you” in it.
Be open to controversy (and the challenges in your industry– if you name it first, you become the trusted advisor).
Tell people how to successfully work with people like you.
What the specific problems of the *specific* clients that you help? Make that very clear.
People have most of this information in their heads, they just have trouble pulling it out and putting it online.
Be unforgettable. Make it easy for people to see that you’re awesome. (Don’t forget to using the positioning tool in Mimiran to help you.)

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode on YouTube or see below…

The Wine

Shaily is having ginger beer and mezcal.

Reuben is drinking Willful Pinot Noir from Willamette Valley Oregon.

Where to find Shaily

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of stories, a good proposal is a story, not a brochure– get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Shaily’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, coming up with your Superhero Name so you’re unforgettable and more referrable, and much more.

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066 Sarah Elkins: Your stories don’t define you– how you tell them will

Sarah Elkins never thought she’d be a master at helping people tell stories. She worked in the public sector for 20 years, collecting stories, asking about really specific things, and could repeat them back to them, highlighting some key points.

She started coaching, working with a woman with multiple sclerosis. She never talked about her MS. She didn’t want to be defined by that. Suddenly Sarah realized she had the title for her podcast, and then her book, and really her whole mission.

In this episode learn how Sarah:

Became an accidental podcast with over 180 episodes (it’s a great, umm, story, no pun intended)
Performs in 2 bands (you can get a listen if you buy the audiobook version of her book, which includes a couple of “bonus tracks”)
Realized that people often hate their jobs because of bad communication, and that with better communication, people would have a better work experience and better relationships.
Realized that people often held judgements about themselves and others based on stories they told themselves that weren’t necessarily true or complete, but had come to define them, and often limit their success.
Helped a speaking client wow a crowd and exorcise some childhood trauma.

Plus learn the common fallacies that hold us back when telling our stories:

That the have to be epic to be meaningful (Sarah has a great example of this in the interview).
Thinking in terms of lengthy timelines, rather than specific instances that illustrate the whole story
Telling your story in a way that puts yourself down (“I’m not very bright…”)
Not sharing emotions– which activate mirror neurons in the head of the listener

And some things you may not consider about telling your story:

Memory is fallible, and even just retelling the story shifts the memory.
There’s no such thing as a lightbulb moment. There’s a dimmer switch.” We don’t remember the little things that lead to the full light.
You can have multiple origin stories. One way to find them is to think of times you have been insulted and felt small. For example, you might have a lot of evidence that you’re smart and accomplished, but one story that suggests you’re not, and you end up believing the one negative story.
Put your stories into categories, so you have relevant stories to share in the right situations. (This sounds like it will take a lot of time, but we’re always telling stories anyway.)

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode on YouTube or see below…

The Wine

Sarah is drinking an Old Fashioned that her husband made.

Reuben is drinking Thomas Jerry 7 Hills Oregon Blend Vineyard 60 cab 28 merlot 12 cab franc.

Books and More

Your Stories Don’t Define You, How You Tell Them Will.

Audio Book version– free extra tracks 2 songs from Spare Change, one of the bands Sarah is in (the other band is called Rocket to Uranus, a 60s cover band).

Where to find Sarah

ElkinsConsulting.com
LinkedIn (note the URL: thesmileisfree)

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”. You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of stories, a good proposal is a story, not a brochure– get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Sarah’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, plus tracking referrals, maintaining relationships through conversations, and more, proposal automation, lead magnets, e-signature, and more.

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051: Stacey Brown Randall on getting Referrals (without asking)

Stacey Brown Randall has a system for what so many of us rely on to get business: referrals.

She got there as many of us do, through failing after she started her first business, doing HR consulting. She got her clients through networking and “hustle” and had to work too hard. She’s land clients like KPMG, do the work, and then realize she was starting at the beginning again. That’s an OK way to start, but it’s not sustainable, and 4 years later, she was on the same “feast or famine” roller coaster.

I also got brave and did video for this episode, so you can watch that, if you prefer…

In addition, while Stacey knew her stuff and could deliver for clients, she wasn’t a salesperson, even with a corporate background in sales and marketing. Having conversations and turning them into clients wasn’t the problem, it was getting the conversations in the first place.

Looking back on the failed business, she realized that the only referral she got was after she had already shut down the business.

Researching how to get referrals, it all seemed so cheesy and unprofessional. She didn’t want to ask, pay, or be cheesy.

She realized she needed better referrals when she launched her coaching business and got over 100 referrals in the first year (as she has done every since). She had something like 30 referrals sources, some of whom sent double digit referrals. And she did this without any testimonials or case studies.

She also realized that she had to do some business development every day. She didn’t want to do the networking circuit, especially with a young family (tell me about it).

Then people started asking her how she got so many referrals (without asking) and she realized she had something to teach.

Referrals, Introductions, and Word-of-Mouth

What does a “referral” mean, and how is it different from an introduction and word-of-mouth? Referrals have both of these components:

Involve a personal connection that transfers trust. (An introduction.)
Identified need, in other words, the prospect is in buying mode. (Word-of-mouth)

5 Step Process for Referrals

Note– for this to work, you have to do great work which makes you referrable. (This is the subject of Stacey’s second book, Sticky Client Experiences, which she’s working on now.)

To prove this, you must have received a referral (preferably several).

Assuming those are true…

Identify your referral sources. Do it once– it will take a lot of time, but you only have to do it once. (Easy if you have the right CRM.) Who refers you clients. Stacey says that this list is your business’s biggest asset. (I didn’t know Stacey was going to say this when I interviewed her– but you should check out the Referrals screen in the Mimiran CRM.) You’ll probably have a few reactions to this list.
1. I want more referral sources.
2. Who are the people I spend a lot of time with who don’t refer me anyone.
3. Who are the people who refer me business that I don’t talk to enough.
Every time you receive a referral, hand write a thank you note, that is very specific about why you are thanking them– mention which referral you are talking about– even if your handwriting is terrible (ahem!). Take care of your referral sources– they keep you from having to eat rubber chicken dinners!
Have an annual plan for outreach to make your memorable and top-of-mind. Do 4-8 touches per year. This is NOT a newsletter or sending swag. (For example, Stacey realized that most of her referral sources were parents, so she recognized them on Mothers’ Day with a Wonder Woman water bottle.)
Plant referral seeds. Use the right language. Your touch point details will dictate the language, but be authentic.
Create a process that you can execute.

Note that referral sources don’t have to be mutual.

Also note that how many referrals you need will depend on what you sell and your capacity for bringing on clients. For example, if you need 30 new clients per year, and you’re getting 10 referrals from 6 sources, you probably want to double your referral sources. Look at your referrals over the past 3 years (if you have that data).

Never forget that the referral source isn’t doing it for you– they are doing it for their friend, so they can be the hero to them.

The Wine & Beer

I got to enjoy some Sojourn Pinot Noir from Sonoma California (getting a bit fancy with the pandemic and all), and Stacey had one of the 2 remaining Coors Lights in her house. (We could have gone on longer, because this is such a great topic, but I didn’t want her to run out of beer completely.)

Where to find Stacey…

StaceyBrownRandall.com (don’t forget to take the Referral Ninja Quiz)
Check out Generating Business Referrals Without Asking: A Simple Five Step Plan to a Referral Explosion
If you want to learn from Stacey, join her Growth By Referrals program.

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”, (Mimiran also makes it easy to track and grow referrals). You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

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026 The totally awesome networking strategy Chris Wike uses that you should use too

Chris Wike

Chris Wike is an attorney at Hajjar Peters here in Austin– not exactly someone you’d think to turn to for Sales for Nerds.

Lawyers can’t sell and market like everyone else. There are regulations and ethics rules and approval rules that limit what you can do. For example, if there’s a lawsuit against a business, lawyers can’t reach out and offer to help them with a specific case (unless it’s an existing client). If you want to run an ad on TV or send out a mailer, or even publish ads online, you need to get approval.

You can argue whether this is a good consumer protection or incumbent-driven efforts to make it harder for young lawyers (maybe some of both?), but that’s the reality, especially in Texas.

So, in this episode, Chris walks us through selling as a lawyer…

How Chris starts relationship building with folks you might not expect and how it gives him control of his career.
Chris’s rule for networking.
How he manages referrals.
How Chris gets meetings with high level people.
How Chris hosts networking events– this is a crazy good idea that you should start doing right now.
Why Chris doesn’t like retainers.
Chris’s strategy for networking outside of his own events.
How Chris tries to set himself apart as a service provider (great advice for any service provider).
Why it’s great that clients may not care what you’re telling them.
How do you give great value to clients.
Chris’s 2 rules for working with people and what he wishes students would learn in school.
A crazy internet lawyer ad. (And here he is getting busted for contempt.)

Plus, I interject with my philosophy on people and tell you how to get an inside track to Sales for Nerds.

Chris and his partners have a 1500 bottle cellar in their conference room.

wine wall

But you don’t need that to take advantage of Chris’s killer networking strategy.

The wine…

resign grenache 2015 Godspeed Granache from Resign Wine. Yummy blend of 80% Grenache, 20% Mourvèdre– the grapes are California, but the company is actually based here in Texas.

(As the producer notes, this label is supposed to yell, “f it! I’m out!”)

Where to find Chris:

p.s. I couldn’t make the last event Chris threw, so I’m now “banned for life.” 😉

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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Episode 9: Matthew Pollard on learning to sell

Matthew Pollard (“The Rapid Growth Guy”) comes on Sales for Nerds to talk about how he learned to sell and become one of the top sales reps in Australia, despite being extremely introverted. He took an approach that seems so simple after he mentions it, but I hadn’t heard of anyone else doing sales “self-training” this way.

In this episode, Matt discusses:

How he taught himself to sell, including the steps of the sale, how to turn features into benefits, and how to close.
How he taught his team to sell.
“People hate to be sold to, but people love to buy.”
Why if you’re doing too much “hard core selling”, your message isn’t right.
Why introverts have a long term advantage in sales versus most extraverts. (And how to take that advantage.)
Why he puts the message first, even before the audience.
Why you need to turn features into benefits, and benefits into stories.
Why stories are so important.
What can I do above and beyond the core functional skills/services/products to give my customer an amazing experience.
Why you don’t want to spend tons of time writing “educational” proposals– it not only wastes your time, it decreases your chances of winning.
If you confuse the customer, you lose the sale.
Practical steps on niching, including a real world example (and a meta-example of Matthew’s storytelling).
Why our brains are overwhelmed by input and we have to focus.
Focus on the people who love what you do– not the people you can never make happy.
Most people have been motivated by fear of not having enough money for most of their lives. They have a set of goals that are driven from here.
Why if you do what you love, there’s always more energy (as shown by Matthew in this interview after getting 4.5 hours of sleep).
The mistake people make in underestimating themselves.

Get the episode now on iTunes.

The Wine

Senorio de Barahonda Sin Madera 2012– lots of pepper and blackberry and some licorice, but not in a bad way. Opens up nicely — although, as we note, it could really do with a steak or a lamb chop. 😉

Where you can find Matthew: Web site, @MatthewPollard_, LinkedIn. And here’s his growth exercise.

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

p.s. Here’s Sydney Road, where Matthew started his sales career:

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