081 Michael Roderick on getting people to talk about you when you’re not in the room


Michael Roderick on Sales for Nerds

Michael went from a high school english teacher to Broadway producer in 2 years, powered by a network that he not only created and nurtured, but empowered to help him.

He read Seth Godin’s book Linchpin, and realized he was part of a system for churning out factory workers. He realized he needed to pursue his Broadway dream, and “it not now, when?”

Later, he deconstructed how he’d been able to pull off this transition, and he realized it wasn’t just that he met with a lot of people– he empowered these people to talk about him (in a good way) when he wasn’t around.

He codified his learning in a set of easy to remember (and mention) frameworks. For example…

Why do people refer you? To make themselves look good. Use the S.U.R.E. framework to assist:

  • Shortcut– make it easy to process and use
  • Utility– make it useful for the person hearing it
  • Reputation– make the referrer look good
  • Expedient– make it easy to mention

Don’t think of your offering, think of the problem your ideal prospect wants to solve, and help them solve a small piece of it, like a magician showing how he does one of his tricks.

This could be an assessment or other useful, actionable piece of information. For example, Michael often talks to experts who have valuable intellectual property that they deploy on behalf of their clients, but they don’t package it the way Simon Sinek or Brené Brown did. So he says that if you know an expert who’s far more obscure than they should be, fill out the “Jargon Grid” to get ideas for packaging your ideas.

I call this a “verbal Lead Magnet that your network can deploy on your behalf”, which Michael says is right on.

To get people talking about you, follow Michael’s 3 Principles of Referability (A.I.M.):

  • Accessibility— can people understand it outside the “Echo Chamber of the Enlightened”— anchor in something someone already knows
  • Influence— will people share it without you asking— make them look good
  • Memory— make it easy to retell the story— focus on L.E.S.S.

Expanding the L.E.S.S. framework:

  • Langage— have your own way of saying things that carve out mental space for you (“venti coffee”)
  • Emotion—illicit emotion to access memory
  • Simplicity— don’t share a 27 point checklist. Keep it simple.
  • Structure— provide order to process information– short lists, quadrants, etc.

What are you going to do to get more people talking about you (in a good way) when you’re not in the room?


The Wine

Reuben enjoys Chateau Jander from Moulis-en-Medoc, Bordeaux.

Michael has a Sales for Nerds first: Whiteclaw Ruby Grapefruit.

Books

Linchpin: Are you indispensable? by Seth Godin


Where to find Michael

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”.

It tracks referrals and helps you grow and nurture your network. Plus, the “Mission and Positioning” screen will help you refine your message, and give you lots of ideas for catchy phrases that will make you more referable. Meanwhile, use Lead Magnets to help turn those referrals into leads and conversations. Get a list of 25 Consulting Lead Magnet ideas here.


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078 Michael Buzinski on Doubling Your Business with the Rule of 26

Michael Buzinski didn’t take your typical path to digital marketing. He was a professional jazz trombonist at age 13. He realized he could go as far as he needed in sales without a college degree, but not in marketing, so he joined the air force. He started a recording studio in 2005, but realized that starving musicians were not great business prospects, so he pivoted to serving business owners.

He grew a multimillion dollar agency, with hundreds of clients. Yet growth and scaling are two different things, and the rapid growth caused more problems than it solved, especially because they weren’t charging enough.

So Michael created a new virtual agency, helping small businesses grow beyond word-of-mouth. Michael is the author of The Rule of 26, which shows how a 26% increase in 3 key metrics leads to a doubling of revenue.

(The math is straightforward: 1 x 1.26 x 1.26 x 1.26 = 2.00. This is the magic of compounding.)

Listen to the episode for more details, but here are the 3 KPIs:

  • Average revenue per client
  • Conversion rate
  • Traffic

In this episode, learn:

  • Why you want to start with average revenue, then work your way to conversion rate, and then traffic.
  • How to get pricing advice from your best clients.
  • How to make your website better at converting visitors (and why most websites are not set up to do this).
  • And much more…

The Wine & Rum

Michael has some Kona spiced Hawaiian rum. And I’ve got some Brave Cellars pinot noir from Willamette Valley Oregon.

Books

The Rule of 26 For Service-Based Businesses: Three Steps to Doubling Website Revenue, by Michael.


Where to find Michael Buzinski

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Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”.

It tracks referrals and helps you grow and nurture your network. And it can help you implement Michael’s ideas about converting visitors to leads and conversations. (Get a list of 25 Lead Magnet ideas here.)


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077 Jonathan Stark on Ditching Hourly Billing

Jonathan Stark is a former software developer turned consultant who hates hourly billing and helps people “ditch hourly” and do value-based pricing.

And somehow, I didn’t know about him until recently. (Jonathan made the observation that we’re climbing up the same mountain from different sides.)

If you’ve ever stressed about pricing a project proposal, don’t miss this episode, where Jonathan shares:

  • How he had an epiphany when he worked for a consulting firm about why hourly billing had to go. He spent weeks trying to figure out why his “best” consultant was the least profitable.
  • Why the problem was hourly billing.
  • How he started his own firm because he needed to get rid of hourly billing, and made more money in his first year.
  • How hourly billing transforms your client relationships.
  • Why hourly billing goes sideways (and why it tends to start sideways, because you ask different questions in the initial meeting)
  • How to do things in the right order– figure out the value first, including the success criteria (and can you even satisfy them?), then the price, then scope.
  • How to let people unburden themselves– let them brain dump, then ask the structured questions, as needed, to fill in the details.
  • How do paid roadmapping sessions to gather information
  • How to get 100% payment upfront (and what to do if you can’t)
  • Fixed price is not the same as cost-plus
  • How do deal with unknown scopes (and the real scopes are always unknown), v
  • How to use explicit guarantees to reduce risk for the buyer, without changing how you operate.
  • How to ask questions like a doctor. (Doctors don’t tell you to jump on the operating table when they first meet you.)

The Wine

It’s a California Pinot Noir kind of episode, with Jonathan enjoying some La Cream and Reuben having a glass of Grevino.

Books

Hourly Billing Is Nuts, by Jonathan.

Value-Based Fees: How to Charge and Get What You’re Worth, by Alan Weiss. (Catch Alan’s Sales for Nerds interview here.)


Where to find Jonathan Stark

  • LinkedIn (he doesn’t really do LinkedIn)
  • valuepricingbootcamp.com— 6 day free email course
  • JonathanStark.com (by the way– check out this website not just for the awesome info, but the awesome example of how to create a great consulting website.)
listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. It tracks referrals and helps you grow and nurture your network. And it can help you implement Jonathan’s ideas about offering different options, crafting a value-based story in your proposal (you can get a free proposal template, too).


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074 Cynthia Zhai on using your voice effectively

We spend a lot of time and energy finding the right words (we do, right?), but how we say them matters at least as much.

In this episode, executive voice coach Cynthia Zhai joins from Singapore (thanks for being willing to have some wine on a Saturday morning) to talk about how to talk.

Cynthia recounts some of her own struggles with confidence in meetings, how she developed her voice to overcome those challenges, and how she helps others do the same thing.

Learn how:

  • You can change your voice– it’s not just something you’re born with.
  • To project confidence to others (and yourself)
  • To breathe and speak from your core, not just your throat (building nicely on some of the breathing tips Ashley DePaulis discussed). Cynthia demonstrates “Kung Fu Breathing” techniques that you can practice yourself (see video below).
  • To break out of the vicious cycle of non feeling confidence and then not sounding confident
  • To handle speaking too aggressively
  • To build habits so that even when you get nervous, your habits will keep you speaking the way you practiced
  • To listen to others’ voices, and to detect nervousness and dishonesty

Check out this short clip on Kung Fu breathing:

Or catch the whole interview on video:


The Wine

Cynthia has some Jacob’s Creek Australian red wine. Reuben is enjoying some Averaen Pinot Noir from Oregon.


Where to find Cynthia

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Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of stories, a good proposal is a story, not a brochure– get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Shaily’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, coming up with your Superhero Name so you’re unforgettable and more referrable, and much more.


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067 Shaily Hakimian on being unforgettable

Do people know how awesome you are? Can they tell from your website? From your social media presence? Social Media Sherpa Shaily Hakimian is here to make sure you let them know.

Shaily was a bullied kid– people thought she was stupid. She learned to make friends and be social on MySpace, where she first managed an online community. After getting her education degree, that experience led to a job offer, and then she had someone ask to pay her for help with online marketing. This led her to start her own marketing company Social Media Sherpa.

In this episode learn:

  • How Shaily learned to make friends and build communities online (on MySpace!).
  • How to talk to people in your community
  • How to not be boring online, which makes it harder to make sales, even after a referral. Make sure you tell your story. (Shaily introduces me to the apparently famous TikTok video “no one asks you questions if you’re an accountant” as a great example.)
  • To make it obvious what problem you solve– let your website, social media, and your podcast do this so you don’t have to rely on a conversation.
  • How should you think about strategy vs. execution when hiring help.
  • What do you need to succeed online? Where are your people? Get stuff from your brain onto “paper”.
  • How can you be unforgettable? What are your FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), the questions you get all the time? Are they on your website?
  • The key pieces of content to share, and how often to share. (Be consistent and regular, but ideally at least 2x per month.)
  • How to do website and social media well, so you don’t replace real human conversations, you have more real conversations with the right people, at a deeper level.
  • Make it authentic– put a little “you” in it.
  • Be open to controversy (and the challenges in your industry– if you name it first, you become the trusted advisor).
  • Tell people how to successfully work with people like you.
  • What the specific problems of the *specific* clients that you help? Make that very clear.
  • People have most of this information in their heads, they just have trouble pulling it out and putting it online.
  • Be unforgettable. Make it easy for people to see that you’re awesome. (Don’t forget to using the positioning tool in Mimiran to help you.)

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode on YouTube or see below…


The Wine

Shaily is having ginger beer and mezcal.

Reuben is drinking Willful Pinot Noir from Willamette Valley Oregon.


Where to find Shaily

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where to find Reuben

@Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of stories, a good proposal is a story, not a brochure– get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Shaily’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, coming up with your Superhero Name so you’re unforgettable and more referrable, and much more.


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066 Sarah Elkins: Your stories don’t define you– how you tell them will

Sarah Elkins never thought she’d be a master at helping people tell stories. She worked in the public sector for 20 years, collecting stories, asking about really specific things, and could repeat them back to them, highlighting some key points.

She started coaching, working with a woman with multiple sclerosis. She never talked about her MS. She didn’t want to be defined by that. Suddenly Sarah realized she had the title for her podcast, and then her book, and really her whole mission.

In this episode learn how Sarah:

  • Became an accidental podcast with over 180 episodes (it’s a great, umm, story, no pun intended)
  • Performs in 2 bands (you can get a listen if you buy the audiobook version of her book, which includes a couple of “bonus tracks”)
  • Realized that people often hate their jobs because of bad communication, and that with better communication, people would have a better work experience and better relationships.
  • Realized that people often held judgements about themselves and others based on stories they told themselves that weren’t necessarily true or complete, but had come to define them, and often limit their success.
  • Helped a speaking client wow a crowd and exorcise some childhood trauma.

Plus learn the common fallacies that hold us back when telling our stories:

  • That the have to be epic to be meaningful (Sarah has a great example of this in the interview).
  • Thinking in terms of lengthy timelines, rather than specific instances that illustrate the whole story
  • Telling your story in a way that puts yourself down (“I’m not very bright…”)
  • Not sharing emotions– which activate mirror neurons in the head of the listener

And some things you may not consider about telling your story:

  • Memory is fallible, and even just retelling the story shifts the memory.
  • There’s no such thing as a lightbulb moment. There’s a dimmer switch.” We don’t remember the little things that lead to the full light.
  • You can have multiple origin stories. One way to find them is to think of times you have been insulted and felt small. For example, you might have a lot of evidence that you’re smart and accomplished, but one story that suggests you’re not, and you end up believing the one negative story.
  • Put your stories into categories, so you have relevant stories to share in the right situations. (This sounds like it will take a lot of time, but we’re always telling stories anyway.)

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode on YouTube or see below…


The Wine

Sarah is drinking an Old Fashioned that her husband made.

Reuben is drinking Thomas Jerry 7 Hills Oregon Blend Vineyard 60 cab 28 merlot 12 cab franc.

Books and More

Your Stories Don’t Define You, How You Tell Them Will.

Audio Book version– free extra tracks 2 songs from Spare Change, one of the bands Sarah is in (the other band is called Rocket to Uranus, a 60s cover band).


Where to find Sarah

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”. You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of stories, a good proposal is a story, not a brochure– get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Sarah’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including telling your Origin Story, plus tracking referrals, maintaining relationships through conversations, and more, proposal automation, lead magnets, e-signature, and more.


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065 David Newman on Marketing for Consultants

I got introduced to David Newman through Ellen Melko Moore (check out her episode on using LinkedIn effectively) and have loved his newsletter and webinars, so I asked him to join me on Sales for Nerds because he has a wonderful way of explaining marketing concepts in “plain English” that’s not only clear and compelling, but also entertaining, cutting through the haze of B.S. that fogs up most marketing advice.

But David took a long, strange path to get here, getting weeded out of pre-med, then earning a theater degree (one of my regrets is not returning to this in the interview), before getting into consulting and training.

In this episode learn:

  • How David learned to listen to people who were trying to give him money (and how that transformed his business and accounts for 98% of his revenue). This also gets back to the importance of having real-life conversations…
  • How and why he moved from corporate training to helping other consultants.
  • How we built a thriving business despite terrible timing (starting out on his own right before 9/11, publishing a book on speaking right before COVID) and struggling to find his niche at the beginning.
  • Why he (and you) needed help (“nobody does anything great alone”).
  • How to stop treating sales and marketing with disdain, while avoid the “ickiness” that comes from treating service sales like product sales.
  • How to avoid “same-o lame-o” websites and create compelling proposals.
  • How to separate yourself from the bad consultants who have burned your prospects in the past (“clients rarely get a chance to commoditize consultants– consultants are too busy doing it themselves”).
  • How to be an effective “professional irritant” (“if you don’t risk turning some people off, you can’t turn anyone on”)
  • How to market well (and be referable): make sure your prospects and partners know exactly what you do, and can repeat it. (“If you’re not repeatable, you’re not referable.”)
  • Why great copy isn’t written, it’s “listened”

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode. See below…


Audio only…

The Wine

David enjoys some Spindrift Pink Lemonade seltzer, while Reuben enjoyed some Willful Pinot Noir from Willamette Valley, Oregon.

Books and More

Do It! Marketing. Just go get David’s book. (Just do it, you might say…)


Where to find David

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Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”. You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Note, speaking of “plain English” proposals, you can also get your “Fill in the Blank” Consulting Proposal Template.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Michelle’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including tracking referrals, maintaining relationships through conversations, and more.


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064 Michelle Tillis Lederman on Forging Genuine Connections

Michelle Tillis Lederman worked in the finance department, crunching numbers, until a chance trip to Japan and an interesting coaching experience led her to launch her own business, helping people connect with each other better.

The “recovering CPA” has written several books, and her latest, The Connector’s Advantage: 7 Mindsets to Grow Your Influence and Impact was what led to this conversation.

In this episode learn:

  • How to achieve your goals faster, easier, and better with help from your connections (and feel better along the way)
  • How to bring your natural strengths and “unique charms” to conversations, instead of trying to force yourself to be someone else (especially helpful for introverts)
  • How to find points of connection
  • How to be stay in a place of curiosity and openness instead of jumping to conclusions, and why this is so important
  • How to keep connections alive and healthy, without being fake
  • The importance of picking up the phone and calling people, even if you’re busy (yes!!!)

Plus, Michelle takes notes as our conversation leads to ideas for 2 blog posts. 😉


And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode. See below…


Audio only…

The Wine

Michelle had a bottle of Poland Springs. 😉 With summer in full swing in Texas, Reuben switched to white, a Ribbonwood Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand.

Books and More

The Connector’s Advantage: 7 Mindsets to Grow Your Influence and Impact. A nice, quick read, with plenty of practical advice.

It’s also a nice compliment to Matthew Pollard’s book, The Introvert’s Edge to Networking (listen to Matthew on Sales for Nerds here).


Where to find Michelle

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”. You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Michelle’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively, including tracking referrals, maintaining relationships through conversations, and more.


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063 Diane Helbig on how to Succeed without Selling

Unlike most of us, Diane grew up with a father who was “everything good about sales”. Yet she still hated the thought of going into sales.

Learn how she overcame that fear and followed in her father’s footsteps as an honest, authentic, problem-solving sales rep.

Diane, is an author (see book recommendation below), advisor, award-winning-speaker, host of the Accelerate Your Business Growth, member of the Newsweek Expert Forum, and the National Small Business Association Leadership Council.

(As a side note, we have been trying to schedule this interview for a while, but I needed time to get around to reading Diane’s excellent book, Succeed without Selling, and when we finally had an interview scheduled, Diane lost power.)

In this episode learn how:

  • Diane changed her perspective on selling so she could be herself.
  • To understand what prospects actually need, so you don’t assume everyone is a prospect.
  • To network effectively not to sell, but to build your community.
  • To define your target market and research people.
  • To get introductions.
  • To go for the conversation, not the sale.
  • To use LinkedIn effectively (do you have your high school on your profile?).
  • To be “you”– if people do business with people they trust, how can they do business with you if you’re not authentic. (“Stop lying!”)
  • To ask budget questions.

And again– we’ve actually got video for this episode. See below…


Audio only…

The Wine

Diane had a glass of 19 Crimes Snoop Cali Red (just look at this bottle). Despite the name, 19 Crimes is an Australian brand, playing off the crimes that could get English people deported.

Reuben had a glass of Chateau Bucasse from Madiran, Gascony in the southwest of France. It’s 60% Tannat (see wikipedia entry here), 20% Cabernet Sauvignon, 20% Cab Franc. If you have a Costco membership, grab a bottle for $14 (it was recently featured on ReverseWineSnob.com as a great deal).

Books and More

Succeed Without Selling: The More You Think About Selling, the Less You Will Sell. A wonderful book– check it out. It’s an easy, practical read, and I wish I’d read this when I was starting my consulting practice, instead of some of the “hardcore” sales books I read, that asked me to be someone else, instead of leaning into who I am.


Where to find Diane

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”, (Mimiran also makes it easy to track and grow referrals). You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Diane’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively.


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062 Reuben Swartz on MEGA Positioning, your secret superpower

Reuben Swartz, Host and Chief Nerd

Hi, I’m back with another solo episode, because I’ve spent so much time recently talking with people about positioning that I wanted to do an episode on it.

So many people struggle with sales and marketing, because they have created a high degree of difficulty for themselves by not taking advantage of positioning.

In this episode learn how:

  • To focus your messaging on your ideal clients
  • How to overcome FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) when you narrow your niche
  • “MEGA” Positioning, the world’s cheesiest marketing pneumonic:
    • Magnetic (and what people get wrong about it)
    • Easy (because this is the dial you use to make sales and marketing easier or harder)
    • Gorilla (how to make yourself the 800 pound gorilla of your market)
    • Authentic (you’ve got to be true to yourself)
  • How to create your Superhero Name and tell your Origin StoryHow to use “The Bar Test” to check your messaging and make sure it resonates
  • Why strong positioning with a narrower nice leads to more leads, not less
  • How to develop your positioning when you get “stuck”

Try the Mission & Positioning Tool for free.


The Wine

Chateau Satarney Pinot Noir from Burgandy, 2015. Yum.


listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com, the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients and would love some help getting more, but hate “selling”, (Mimiran also makes it easy to track and grow referrals). You can also  listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

Want a way to make sales and marketing fun, without being “salesy”? Try Mimiran, the CRM for elite solo consultants who love serving clients but who hate “selling”. (Including the more powerful than ever Free Edition.) Mimiran can help you implement a lot of Alan’s ideas not only more efficiently, but more effectively.


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