Reuben Swartz – Page 7 – Sales for Nerds

036: Craig Elias on Trigger Event Selling and More

Craig started as a computer science major and ended up one of the top sales people in Canada, with a best-selling sales book to his name.

How did this happen? And what can you learn from this for your business (and your life)?

In this episode, learn:

What’s considered a mild winter in Calgary.
How he jump started his sales career, even though he didn’t seem qualified on paper. (And how he reflected on this later and the realization it led to.)
Craig’s primary sales philosophy: How do I become the first person people call when they have a problem?
Where to look for great sales reps.
Why he had a lot of price objections when he started, and what he did about it.
What he did after he joined WorldCom just as 9/11 was happening, and then, after he became their top sales rep, what happened when everyone realized the execs had committed accounting fraud. It was the first time no one would buy from him.
Craig’s 3 big epiphanies about sales:
- The Window of Disatisfaction
- Trigger Events (and typical examples)
- Analyzing wins (and why it’s more important than the typical sales advice of “even if you lose the deal, don’t lose the lesson”)
Why you need to use verbs instead of nouns (with some great examples from trucking companies to marriages), and what you want to hear as a response.
Why you want to ask “how?” and “what?” rather than “why?” questions (speaking of advice that can also apply to marriages).
Why Craig ended up living on Yerba Buena Island in the middle of San Francisco Bay (I always wondered who actually lived there whenever I drove over the Bay Bridge).
And much, much more. Even though I had read Craig’s book, I learned a ton, and I think you will, too.

The Wine

After my forced experiment with rosé in the last episode, I’m back to reds with Parducci True Grit Reserve Petite Syrah 2014 from California, while Craig enjoyed some Tom Gore 2016 Cab, his favorite California Cabernet Sauvignon.

Where to find Craig:

Craig’s Book:

Shift! Harness the Trigger Events that Turn Prospects into Customers

Other books mentioned in the episode:

Consultative Selling, by Mack Hanan.

Spin Selling, by Neil Rackham. Craig says that chapter 4 in particular is the best 30 pages written about sales.

And, my weakness in Russian literature is obvious. The quote about happy families is not from Dostoyevsky. It’s Tolstoy– in fact it’s the beginning of Anna Karenina:

“Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

listen-on-apple-podcasts-sales-for-nerds

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more). You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, or Player.fm.

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035: Joy Beatty on Engineering the Sales Process

JoyBeatty Joy Beatty insists she is not a VP of Sales. Or Marketing. Even though she runs both teams for Seilevel, a requirements consulting firm that helps companies complete big software project successfully by actually having the right requirements in place. (For people who have never been involved in these big projects, this probably sounds crazy. For people who have, you know how important it is.)

How does she reconcile this: “I don’t see myself in sales. I see myself as a problem-solver.” One thing she can do is put a process in place. So that’s what she did, to great success. Learn how she did that, and how you can do the same thing, without being a world class sales expert, including

How she never wanted to run sales, and thought it was a terrible idea.
How she applied Sandler concepts (including some learned from Adam Boyd from Episode 3), not only to sales, but also to consulting, including the use of upfront contracts and making it safe to say “no.” (“I don’t feel like I’m doing sales, and I guess that’s why it’s working.”)
Why they don’t use quotas.
How to get opportunities unstuck.
How they defined the sales process (and how you can do it quickly if you’re not sure where to start).
How to get people to change and use the new process.
How Joy applies requirements consulting techniques to simplify sales reporting.
How to keep yourself accountable if you’re doing sales in addition to your “day job.”
Joy shares a tip she learned from me (!) about picking up the phone.

Here’s an example of working on the sales process:

Working on the sales process

The Wine

Aime Roquesante Rose 2017

Joy brought some Aimé Roquesante rosé. I am trying to broaden my horizons, but I have to admit I’m having some trouble here. If you’re a rosé fan, don’t let me deter you.

Where to find Joy:

Books by Joy:

Visual Models for Software Requirements, with Anthony Chen

Software Requirements, 3rd Edition with Karl Wiegers (Microsoft Press, like Code Complete).

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034: Terry Hansen on preventing objections in the sales cycle

Terry Hansen Terry is the President of Hansen Group Company, a sales performance improvement firm, and the creator of Hansen University, an online training platform with over 60 hours of online courses for sales professionals and sales managers. For over a decade, Terry has helped enterprises, nonprofits and startups find more prospects, close more deals, and retain customers longer. Terry and his wife have 5 kids, so that might be an even more impressive insight into his organizational skills. 😉

Like most people on this podcast, Terry never thought he’d end up in sales, let alone a sales trainer. A gymnast in high school, Terry ended up working as a stunt performer at Disneyland.

He almost ran off to join the circus. Literally. But with a young family, he needed more reliable work, so he tried sales. And was terrible at it. It took him years to figure it out (although less time than me).

He realized that most of his peers in the sales group had a really polished pitch, so he created his own. Only to realize that the really successful sales reps were much more about listening than talking. Today’s buyers already have a lot of information– they don’t need a feature dump.

Terry also realized that it’s really hard to overcome objections (despite the extensive sales literature on this topic). It’s much better to prevent those objections earlier in the sales process.

Terry realized that while their are lots of possible objections, they basically boil down to 4 main issues:

Motivation. How much pain or urgency is there?
Budget and money.
Authority to get the deal done.
The product/service/solution itself.

The PIMAT Framework. Use Terry’s framework to remember what you need to have a qualified deal:

Problem.
Impact.
Money.
Authority.
Technical.

Forget about overcoming objections– prevent them, instead. Grab your free PIMAT scorecard from Terry.

The wine (and more)

Sinergia Cabernet Sauvignon 2014 Reuben enjoyed a Los Frailes Sinergia Cabernet Sauvignon from 2014. It’s an organic wine, that started with a strong “this is an organic wine” taste (can someone tell me what that is?), but having a glass the day after I opened it, that taste was mostly gone, and what was left was a very smooth cab (I would have thought it was a different grape, if you’d asked me).

Terry doesn’t drink alcohol, so he had something much less healthy– the famous chocolate milk with potato flakes from Reed’s Dairy. It sounds like some kind of Idaho joke, and I’ve never had it, but those who have swear the use of the potato flakes improves the taste and texture over regular chocolate milk and people who have visited can develop cravings.

Where to find Terry:

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How to Nail Your Proposals (on the Predictable Revenue Podcast)

I had a lot of fun talking about proposals with Collin Stewart, co-CEO of Predictable Revenue (along with Aaron Ross, author of Predictable Revenue, who did an interview on Sales for Nerds earlier to talk about that and his new book From Impossible to Inevitable). Collin was a good sport about me beating up on his proposal (he had sent me an example before the interview, and I had taken out my proverbial red pen). I hope I was as good a sport about my poor outbound sales skills. 😉

Anyway, check it out.

Here are the show notes, including iTunes link, etc, on PredictableRevenue.com.

And here are the resources mentioned in the episode (including a discount on the Sales for Nerds Proposal Online Course).

033: Vanessa Van Edwards on How to Captivate People

Vanessa Van Edwards is lead investigator at the Science of People—a human behavior research lab. She is the national bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding With People, which was chosen as one of Apple’s Most Anticipated Books of the year. Her work has been featured on CNN, NPR and Fast Company. She has written columns on the science of success for Entrepreneur Magazine and the Huffington Post. Vanessa started her study of people as a shy teenager, trying to figure out how people interacted. This turned into a lifelong pursuit. When I read her book, I wanted her to come on the show. Vanessa was kind enough to take time away from her 10 week old daughter to share her story and wisdom. There’s a lot of great stuff in here, including

When to practice your new tactics (and when not to).
One of the few things Reuben did right in college, and how you can apply this technique right now to help you.
Why we subconsciously use defensive body language in work settings, and what we can do about it (another great VVE technique).
Starting a conversation vs “sparking” a conversation.
Why everyone should do 6 months in sales of some kind.
Vanessa’s sales tip– don’t focus on sales, focus on stories.
Don’t hand out your props at the beginning of the meeting.
How to let other people impress you, instead of trying to impress them.
What to say, where to stand, and what to do at networking events.
How to share stories effectively, and how to know if your stories are too long.
How to ask for advice
Bonus: A tip that Vanessa has never mentioned before when people ask if you know someone…

Books Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People Other books mentioned:

Howard’s End, by E.M. Forster. One of the great works of English literature (so I’m told) with a great motif: “Only connect!”

Other Tools & Resources:

Check out Vanessa’s site Science of People for all kind of goodies on improving your social interactions.

The wine

As mentioned, Vanessa had to take a rain check on the wine because she has a newborn that she’s feeding, but in her honor, I got to enjoy something from one of her favorite Oregon wineries, Argyle (it’s the 2013 Reserve Pinot Noir). It’s got a bit of fruit and bit of earth, but not whelming, and it’s got more body than a lot of Willamette pinots. Argyle Pinot Noir 2013

Where to find Vanessa:

www.scienceofpeople.com
LinkedIn
@vvanedwards

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032 Michael Zipursky on the Elite Consulting Mind

Michael Zipursky

Michael Zipursky didn’t mean to start consulting with giant Japanese corporations in his early 20s. It just happened. Hear how he pulled it off, and how he started multiple businesses, including his most recent venture helping consultants learn from his mistakes (this should sound familiar to long time listeners). Plus, learn to improve your results by improving your mindset, from the author The Elite Consulting Mind. In this episode, learn how:

Michael set himself up for success in his early 20s before he got on a plane for Japan. (He found a niche for helping Japanese companies market to the North American market.)
Why he’s fascinated with languages and cultures.
Michael learned how to sell, sometimes the hard way.
- Why people try to rush sales before relationships, and what to do instead (and a time Michael made a bad mistake in this area).
- How many consultants make the opposite mistake, and never try to actually sell anything. (“No one buys consulting, unless someone makes an offer.”)
- No one wants to buy what we’ve created. They want to buy a solution to their problem.
- The only way to solve the problem is to understand it by asking questions.
- When you understand the problem, you can charge a lot more.
What’s holding people back? Usually fear. Fear of making a mistake, the unknown, and being rejected.
- The Catch-22 is that confidence and competence come from taking action, while people don’t take action because they’re afraid.
- Taking action gives you the only feedback that really matters– from the market.
When we do “take action”, a lot of the things that make you feel productive, because you’re spending time on them, are not actually moving your business forward. Drop those things, and spend more time on the smaller fraction of things that actually create lots of value. We often do things that are easy or comfortable, rather than the things that are hard and actually productive. For example, spend time to meet with people, or, at a minimum pick up the phone and have a two way conversation. Don’t fall into the trap of sending the quick email.
- Think you don’t have time? Follow the 80/20 rule. Document your process and pinpoint where you are really required. Offload repeated tasks (and your ego).
- What you can’t outsource— marketing! You have to define your audience and your message.
Bonus tip: If you really want to build a thriving practice, stay in touch and make introductions when you *don’t* have the solution they need right now. This is a great way to build trust.

Books

The Elite Consulting Mind: 16 Proven Mindsets to Attract More Clients, Increase Your Income and Achieve Meaningful Success, by Michael Zipursky.

Other books mentioned:

80/20 Sales and Marketing: The Definitive Guide to Working Less and Making More, by Perry Marshall
The 80/20 Principle: The Secret to Achieving More with Less, by Richard Koch

Other Tools:

The Consulting Blueprint from ConsultingSuccess.com.
The “Mad Libs” Marketing Message generator.

The wine

We were on a Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir kick for this discussion, without any coordination. Michael was drinking some Patz & Hall 2014 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir (which is amazing, if you like Pinot like I do). I had the also delicious but less amazing (but much more affordable) Sean Minor 2014 Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir.

Patz and Hall

Sean Minor

Where to find Michael:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more).

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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031: Rusty Shelton on Authority Marketing and Writing Books

Rusty Shelton

Rusty Shelton has written 2 books, and his latest one, Authority Marketing: How to Leverage the 7 Pillars of Thought Leadership to Make Competition Irrelevant, is about using books to help spread your message and grow your business.

I sat down with Rusty in his Hill Country office to talk about media, authority, marketing, and more. In this interview, learn…

How Rusty got into the publishing world, and how he got started on his first book.
The “why?” behind writing a book– it’s not about getting rich from selling a lot of copies. (“The worst way to make money from a book is buy selling it.”)
Why every company is a media company.
Why books are different than other forms of media, and why writing one is different for your brand than other forms of content.
3 types of media channels
- Rented media (Facebook, etc)
- Earned media (PR, speaking, referrals, etc)
- Owned media (this is the new channel that didn’t exist for most of human history, at least not a global scale)
3 types of audiences– the stadium analogy
- your customer and partners
- people who have a seat in the stadium, but haven’t bought yet.
- outside the stadium
The big marketing mistake companies make with the stadium
How to set up compelling Lead Magnets.
How to convert earned media to owned media.
Content strategy as your personal newspaper
- Don’t fill it with ads or op-eds
- Think like the media, not a marketer– focus on the needs of the audience
Why personal brands can be more powerful than big corporate brands
How to use visuals to promote your personal brand
How your personal brand is important, even for referral-based work
3 ways to publish
- Traditional publishing with a major publisher, an advance, etc. Takes about a year. Getting harder and harder to get this if you don’t already have a big stadium.
- Independent– you get the editor, design the cover, etc. You can sell these in bookstores, but there’s more work involved, and you shouldn’t expect to be on a lot of shelves.
- Assisted self publishing, or hybrid (like Greenleaf Books, Advantage | Forbes Books)
Doesn’t matter as much as it used to, but, the book has to be good, and it can’t look like it was “self-published”.
- You need to have an audio book if you’re trying to reach business audiences. (Joel Block here in Austin help us do our reading, which took 9 hours for 35,000 words, and yielded an 8 hour audio book.)
Do an online brand audit– type your name into Google. Are you there? Do the results line up with what you want your prospects to see?
What’s holding me back from writing a book?
- How to “eat the elephant”, and why you don’t need to write a 100,000 words.
Sales for Nerds the book– it’s coming. What have I done?!?!?! What would you like to see covered in the book? Let me know on Twitter.

Books

Authority Marketing: How to Leverage the 7 Pillars of Thought Leadership to Make Competition Irrelevant

And Rusty’s previous book:

Mastering the New Media Landscape: Embrace the Micromedia Mindset

The wine

Monte Real Rioja 2009 from Spain. Delicious, a bit of BBQ and smoke. Feels right at home in the Texas summer.

Where to find Rusty:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com (the easy CRM for people who are awesome at serving clients but would love some help getting more).

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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030 David A. Fields on Building an Irresistible Consulting Business

DavidAFields

David A. Fields shares his journey from a teenager trying to save up money to buy a computer, to becoming a consultant, to helping other consultants with the business of consulting. He recently wrote one of the most useful books on consulting I’ve read, The Irresistible Consultant’s Guide to Winning Clients: 6 Steps to Unlimited Clients & Financial Freedom. (Seriously, read this book, it’s not the typical 20 pages of content and 200 pages of filler.)

In this interview, David shares his story, and advice from his book, including:

The critical lesson he learned selling shoes: it’s not about the shoes, it’s about the feet. (This sound really simple, but it’s not easy to pull off in practice, even for some of the 8-figure firms David helps.)
How he “fell into” consulting, then got worried because his partner had to quit 4 weeks later, and how “on a lark” he started working with other consultants.
Why he loves consulting.
Why you don’t have to be super smart, innovative, or even better than the competition. (And why attempts at differentiation probably lose more business than anything else.)
You have to show the client that they can trust you to solve the problem without hurting them. (And what you have to do with your approach to build trust.)
Why consulting is bought, not sold.
How to perform “The Turn” from marketing and relationships (social norms) to an actual sales opportunity (market norms) with 7 simple words: “are you open to a separate conversation?”
How to structure and set fees, including using the “heart attack question” to bound the budget discussion.
Some encouragement on building a consulting practice: “This isn’t a business about doing things perfectly, it’s about doing the right things.”
Plus, David and Reuben get into details on structuring proposals.

A quick recap of the 6 Steps from David’s book:

Think “right side up” (client first)
Maximize impact with the prospects you have (the right people, the right problem, the right solution, at the right time, with the right fishing line) As consultants, “we don’t hunt, we fish”.
Build visibility, with 2 of the 5 channels (speaking, writing, networking, trade associations, digital presence). However, 1 of the channels must be networking.
Connect, connect, connect
Become the obvious choice (“Discovery” is the key here, and will be the title of one of David’s upcoming books)
Propose, negotiate, and close (including how to offer different options and how to handle price objections).

Books

Irrestible Consultants Guide to Winning Clients

The Irresistible Consultant’s Guide to Winning Clients: 6 Steps to Unlimited Clients & Financial Freedom

The wine

Reuben had some Marquis de Calon (Bordeaux, Saint Estephe 2010) 53% Cabernet sauvignon, 38% Merlot, 7% Cabernet Franc, 2% Petit Verdot. Plum, red current, coffee, earth. Yum.

David does not drink alcohol (despite trips to Bordeaux and Italy), but here’s his recipe for irresistible iced chocolate:

1 tbs cacao powder*
1 tbs carob powder*
1 handful unsalted cashews*
1 frozen, ripe banana for sweetener
20 oz water

Blend all ingredients in a high-power blender (Vitamix or Blendtec) for 50 seconds on high. Pour over glass of ice cubes.

*David uses raw, organic ingredients, but it’s not required.

Where to find David:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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029 Stella Orange on Authentic Marketing

Screen-Shot-2018-01-30-at-2.30.56-PM-768x857

Stella Orange talks about her strange path to marketing and copywriting via Japan, school teaching, bike riding, and writing copy to raise money for an arts nonprofit in Montana.

This includes the books she read to teach herself direct marketing, how she got her first clients (a great strategy for people who don’t have a sales engine when they start), and the mistakes business owners make in marketing.

[Extra props to Stella for taking time out of her vacation to record this episode, which I had to reschedule not once, but twice. This did leave her without whiskey, which was quite unfortunate. And then her dog threw up during the call, which she cleaned up on the fly. Thanks for being a trooper.]

Check out this episode to learn:

How working for a nonprofit and writing and performing plays gave Stella a great perspective on the performance of marketing. (Everyone has an interesting story about how they got into sales and marketing, and this might be one of the most interesting stories I’ve heard.)
How she turned her passion for writing into a “career”, despite being “unemployable”.
How she got her first clients, and how she taught herself sales. (And what her coach said to her when she said, “I’m a writer, I want my work to speak for itself.”)
Why she cried when she was starting her business, and why she cried after it took off.
Her stress over charging $450 for a 5 page website (she now charges much more, and has a great way of dealing with price objections).
“Old marketing”, focusing on pain, versus “new marketing”, focusing on desires, which can attract more qualified leads for many businesses. (Stella spent way too much time on unqualified leads early in her career.)
The biggest mistake people make in marketing (and of course, what you should do instead).

Books (if you don’t want to spend the money on the Amazon link, you can go to the public library like Stella did):

Guerilla Marketing (Jay Conrad Levinson)
No B.S. Marketing to the Affluent: The Ultimate, No Holds Barred Take No Prisoner Guide to Getting Really Rich (Dan Kennedy and Nick Nanton)
The Prosperous Coach: Increase Income and Impact for You and Your Clients (Steve Chandler, Rich Litvin)

The wine whisky

Reuben had some Oban 14 year old Highland whisky. It’s got a little bit of sweetness to it, with hints of vanilla and caramel. Nice for people who don’t want all the peat, but also want a bit more flavor than the Macallan.

Stella wished, for just this one moment that she wasn’t on vacation, and was at home with her bottles, preferably the Yoichi Japanese whisky. Yoichi Single Malt

Where to find Stella:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com. (Looking for a way to turn more visitors into leads, leads into conversations, conversations into clients, and stay in touch with the people who matter? Start a Mimiran free trial.)

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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028 Maurice Cherry on Content Marketing

Maurice Cherry

Maurice had always enjoyed using computers, even as far back as elementary school. He intended to get a computer science degree, but found that his degree program wasn’t very practical. He switched gears a little and became a math major. Maurice was named as one of GDUSA’s “People to Watch” in 2018, and was named one of Atlanta’s “Power 30 Under 30″ in the field of Science and Technology by the Apex Society. Maurice was also selected as one of HP’s “50 Tech Tastemakers” in conjunction with Black Web 2.0, and was also selected by Atlanta Tribune as one of 2014’s Young Professionals. He recently won the Steven Heller Prize for Cultural Commentary from AIGA. He’s the host of the RevisionPath podcast, highlighting black designers and developers.

How did he accidentally end up in sales? He needed a job and telemarketers were hiring. It was humbling and soul crushing. He ended up getting fired.

Got a job working in design, based on a portfolio he had built up over time. This felt like his first real job, where he had a door with an office.

He worked at WebMD and AT&T, which sounds like it was a strange “Office Space” kind of dystopia, like a weird Black Mirror episode.

When he quite and started on his own, he had a rough time because selling was hard. He started working on a political campaign, in the aftermath of Obama’s successful use of the internet, which at the time seemed very cutting edge for the political world. (This was back in the day when MySpace was bigger than Facebook.) This led to business opportunities with other people in the city. He also joined forces with 2 other people, using this extended network to help land clients.

He ended up running his own agency for 9 years, then joined Fog Creek Software, after feeling like so much of the design world got commoditized. There, he specializes in creating content, and he’s got some important tips:

Build trust with your audience. People are so inundated that they often don’t even believe the truth, let alone marketing B.S.
Test. Test. Test. Take away the subjectivity. Even if you don’t have a huge audience.
Personalize.
How to “cheat” at content marketing– Maurice uses Google Keep to track notes. He’s had over 200 guests on his Revision Path podcast. When he sees a news item on one of his past guests, he logs it in Keep, so he can quickly put together a newsletter without having to dig for information. (Maurice uses RSS to keep on top of the news.)
Maurice uses Buffer to schedule social media posts in a queue. He likes to prepare content weeks to months in advance, and schedule it to go later. (Mental note– I need to get better at this.)
How do you know if content will be good? You may not. But ask people in surveys where they can criticize you anonymously. And stay in touch with your audience. Have a conversation. If you’re not hearing anything back from your audience, you’re not really having a conversation. Understand your audience– not only the topics that they care about, but the depth and length and language that they care about.

“Talk to your audience, get to know them.”

—-

Social Media Scheduling Apps:
Buffer
MeetEdgar (and check out the Sales for Nerds episode with MeetEdgar founder Laura Roeder.)
SocialBee

Google Keep

Black Mirror (Netflix TV series– prepare to be disturbed, especially one of the episodes that seems a little too much like one of the jobs Maurice mentioned in the interview)

Fog Creek Software (and check out the Sales for Nerds episode with Fog Creek CEO Anil Dash— really interesting technical insights into the sales process)

The wine

Venue Vineyards 2015 stage coach syrah Venge Vineyards 2015 Stagecoach Syrah –currently sold out at the vineyard– I was lucky enough to grab some at a local event– it’s a bit fancier than the wine I usually drink. 😉 Yummy, but very rich– you may want to have it with some food. (Goes nicely with BBQ, according to my research.)

Where to find Maurice:

Where you can find Reuben: @Sales4Nerds, @Mimiran, Mimiran.com.

You can also listen on Overcast, or Subscribe on Android, Player.fm.

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